6 replies to this topic

[anthonyloprimo]

It feels odd making a post like -this- be my first one, but I was searching out a forum meant for programming specifically to ask a question like this.

Up until recently, I was never a programming type - I would never be able to learn programming. Whether it was a mental block, or if it was some other restriction (time, technical capability, etc.), it would seem that I was stuck with ideas - good ones (or so a lot of people would tell me), but no way to get them done.

No matter how detailed I'd make something, no matter how much work I'd put into it (having enough resources for a demo, just short of the actual code), no matter where I'd post, it seems that people wouldn't take me seriously.

Now, I've been able to start learning (slowly but surely), and I have a small team of people looking to help and/or learn, but the issues I've dealt with I face on a much smaller scale now - and the question still lingers on:

Why is it that programmers seem to turn up their noses at any idea - when it comes from someone who doesn't program? And let's make it a bit more specific - when the idea comes from someone who has looked into programming, seems to grasp some basics, and comes up with theories that makes sense on SOME level?

Why does it seem like unless the project is started by a programmer, no one wants to try an idea for the hell of it. I see projects that are seemingly pointless get started "just cause". Everyone wants to help. As soon as some non-programming type people come around, it's suddenly pointless. "Just cause" isn't good enough. No one wants to take time (including those who HAVE time) to help or mess around. This reaction to my ideas come from not only younger people (who it might be expected of, those who want results but don't always want to work for it unless THEY do it), but from those who actually WANT to learn things, and from those who seem willing to do small things here and there for people for free, even if it's a portion.

Whether I've asked for a programmer to do programming (while I work on just about everything else - in the case of games, I talk about music, graphics, sfx, scripts/storyboards and more and in the case of programs, all the other needed resources) or to simply help me, or steer me in the right direction, I either get a link to something that assumes you know a handful about programming, with tutorials that are less-than-helpful to a beginner, or I just get the cold shoulder.

In the past I've been told that it doesn't seem that I put effort into things - if I collect and/or make a heck of a lot of resources, take the time to compose a design document, make mockups and more, for any project, and most of it is done on my own, is that really not putting effort? It gives me the impression that programmers want a working demo to play what they should make.. but if I could make a working demo, I'd work on making a full game instead of asking for help. ...At least that seems to make sense, no?

So yeah. Can anyone here answer reasons people would act that way, hopefully without preparing to flame me? All I want to know is - why? Why act like this? Is it really that impossible for an artist, or composer, or any non-programmer to have good ideas? :/

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PS: If you get the impression that I have projects I'd like to have people work on with me (either help or work side-by-side on) then while it wasn't intended, yes, I have some projects I'd like to see created. But again, the main topic of this post is to find information, not ask for people.

[lor]

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Why is it that programmers seem to turn up their noses at any idea - when it comes from someone who doesn't program? And let's make it a bit more specific - when the idea comes from someone who has looked into programming, seems to grasp some basics, and comes up with theories that makes sense on SOME level?

I wouldn't catergorize every programmer like that although yeh I do understand what you mean, I used to be on forums quite a bit before I started to learn how to program and a lot of them seemed to act as though they were higher than you and better than you.

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I either get a link to something that assumes you know a handful about programming, with tutorials that are less-than-helpful to a beginner, or I just get the cold shoulder.

I hate that, especially when you ask a question and someone gives you a link to Google.

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Is it really that impossible for an artist, or composer, or any non-programmer to have good ideas? :/

I thought the whole point of being called an artist was because you were artistic meaning you're usually more creative than the normal person... So I guess not...

[Alexander]

Programming is most of the time a hard task unless it is something you are truly comfortable with, a lot of people alone i.e. without a leader, may be troubled on where "this" or "that" may go if they do it on their own.

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I either get a link to something[...]

I personally would check the quality of material I would link to, and give atleast an hours help on what it means if it takes 1/10 the time than explaining all on my own. I assume of what you are asking is too much for a single "confrontation" when explaining to a programmer.

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is that really not putting effort?

That is of more effort than most people do. You will notice the exponential amount of mockups and examples people will need to produce in corporate jobs, the more "documentation" (anything other than the program itself) the better the ideas for the programmer to program with.

[anthonyloprimo]

Nullw0rm said:

Programming is most of the time a hard task unless it is something you are truly comfortable with, a lot of people alone i.e. without a leader, may be troubled on where "this" or "that" may go if they do it on their own.


I personally would check the quality if material I would link to, and give atleast an hours help on what it means if it takes 1/10 the time than explaining all on my own. I assume of what you are asking is too much for a single "confrontation" when explaining to a programmer.

That is of more effort than most people do. You will notice the exponential amount of mockups and examples people will need to produce in corporate jobs, the more "documentation" (anything other than the program itself) the better the ideas for the programmer to program with.

I understand how difficult programming can be, if only from what I've been learning. Programming truly is (as I read in one book) something like telling a teenager what to do. You don't just tell it to do X Y and Z, but you have to say EXACTLY how it is. If there's 5 steps in X and 10 in Y, with only 2 in Z, you need to tell it to do that, and then define every detail of those steps, and if needed, every detail in THOSE details.

The material I usually "collect" consist of my own works. If the quality is less-than average, I make it a point to say that this is WIP/placeholder material. And usually the placeholder material is decent quality, and I make it so even if it's simple colors and shapes, they are neat and well done to the best possible extent.

Forgive me if I miss your point at all, but I am assuming that your last part of the post basically says that as much as I'm doing, there is probably a lot more that I need to do, even though it seems like a lot? Again, sorry if I missed your point.

lor said:

I wouldn't catergorize every programmer like that although yeh I do understand what you mean, I used to be on forums quite a bit before I started to learn how to program and a lot of them seemed to act as though they were higher than you and better than you.
I hate that, especially when you ask a question and someone gives you a link to Google.
I thought the whole point of being called an artist was because you were artistic meaning you're usually more creative than the normal person... So I guess not...

Sometimes, it's tough to not act like you're above others who are less-skilled than you. It's mainly a matter of looking before you leap - sure they know less. Sure they might ask dumb questions - but remember that they are asking these things because they are less skilled - and most likely don't know where to go. They aren't quite situated in a subject in a way to start gaining a "common sense" for that topic. Some people have different thought processes. That what seems to be the issue.

The google linking annoyances seem to boil down to one main issue - people ask too many stupidly pointless questions that could be easily answered by asking it in google, ask, or anything.

Usually yeah. An artist is one who is more skilled/creative in their trade than others, usually. But sometimes I guess different kinds of artists can look down to others.. :/

[lor]

anthonyloprimo said:

Sometimes, it's tough to not act like you're above others who are less-skilled than you. It's mainly a matter of looking before you leap - sure they know less. Sure they might ask dumb questions - but remember that they are asking these things because they are less skilled - and most likely don't know where to go. They aren't quite situated in a subject in a way to start gaining a "common sense" for that topic. Some people have different thought processes. That what seems to be the issue.

The google linking annoyances seem to boil down to one main issue - people ask too many stupidly pointless questions that could be easily answered by asking it in google, ask, or anything.

Usually yeah. An artist is one who is more skilled/creative in their trade than others, usually. But sometimes I guess different kinds of artists can look down to others.. :/

I was not referring to "higher than you and better than you" as in how skilled you are in programming, I'm talking about in general I've dealt with people who have thought they are higher & better than you as a person. No matter how skilled you may be at a particular subject and when someone seeks guidance or help from you you should never act as if they're lower down on the food chain as a human being if they don't know what an array is, for example.

Also, I'm not talking about when people post a link to Google when you ask a general question or one that is posted up all over the internet, I mean more of the lines of when you DO turn to Google for something a little more detailed and search for answers but when you make no progress & you turn towards the guidance of a forum, it's an annoyance when they direct you to the same place you started.

Sorry, I should have been more specific.

[anthonyloprimo]

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I was not referring to "higher than you and better than you" as in how skilled you are in programming, I'm talking about in general I've dealt with people who have thought they are higher & better than you as a person. No matter how skilled you may be at a particular subject and when someone seeks guidance or help from you you should never act as if they're lower down on the food chain as a human being if they don't know what an array is, for example.

Interesting. I get what you mean. I was over-specific regarding the "better than you" statement as well.

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Also, I'm not talking about when people post a link to Google when you ask a general question or one that is posted up all over the internet, I mean more of the lines of when you DO turn to Google for something a little more detailed and search for answers but when you make no progress & you turn towards the guidance of a forum, it's an annoyance when they direct you to the same place you started.

Sorry, I should have been more specific.

What I'm saying is that due to a large amount of people asking dumb questions, the line between "sensible" questions and "stupid" questions gets blurred. So much info is available - some of it is difficult to get and some of it is easy. Some people see questions they deem simple and just reply with google. I've done it myself - I read a question that seems easy to answer because I know it. So I (and others) tell them to google it. I think about it later, and realize that the question was about something that is kinda difficult for a beginner (this is about non-programming things but it's a good example) and it made sense for that person to ask the question.

[WingedPanther]

Just a few general comments, as someone who codes for a living.

1) I get a lot of "specifications" from people who are paying me to write programs for them, and often the level of detail is severely lacking until I put in a significant amount of effort. It's not the fault of the non-programmer, it's just a different level of detail. I'm not saying you are doing this, it's just an observation. I almost always have to flesh out more details, no matter how thorough the person I'm working with is, and no matter how much of a pleasure that person is to work with.

2) One of the annoying things about coding is that the "simple" looking things can be annoyingly hard to do, and the "hard" looking things can be simple. Since I'm a mathematician, I'd rather work on implementing detailed statistical formulas than on getting the GUI to be a shape other than a rectangle, for instance.

3) Most programmers get more excited about a project where it's already doing something, and they can quickly add a feature, than getting the first bits of heavy lifting going. I see this in my own work, where I'm being paid to make something happen. Getting a window looking good, and behaving properly is hard. Adding another dropdown to it is easy.