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Socialism


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#1 Guest_Jordan_*

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 08:07 AM

Received via email from my brother (reiz):

An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single
student before but had, once, failed an entire class. That class had
insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one
would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we will
have an experiment in this class on socialism. All grades would be
averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail
and no one would receive an A.

After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The
students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little
were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who
studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard
decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little.. The second
test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around
the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all
resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of
anyone else. All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told
them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward
is great, the effort to succeed is great; but when government takes all
the reward away; no one will try or want to succeed.

Could not be any simpler than that....


I think its true.
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#2 WingedPanther73

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 08:41 AM

One of the simplest tests you can take to see if socialism works:
If 90% of your income above $250,000 will be taxed, would you bother doing the extra work to exceed $250,000? Another way to look at it: If you are paid $100/hour, would you continue working if, after 6 months of work, your take-home pay dropped from $66/hour to $10/hour?

If you would keep working, you think socialism can work. If you would quit working, then socialism would lower the cutoff (to $200,000, or lower) to try to preserve revenue, and you can see how socialism would fail.

Me? I'd rather have fun than work for 10% of my work's value.
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#3 Turk4n

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 10:56 AM

Luckily I accept only, New neo-liberal -socialism.
Don't ask why, I just do it :<
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#4 jwxie518

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:49 PM

This has been a debate, just let me express my kiddy-thinking.
I have not yet experience the real world, but i think even at my age, 17, has my own feeling.
everyone is respect, and I shall express my own belief here.

my history teacher, a couple weeks ago said "the Europeans are a bunch of socialist"
i don't like the way he said it. is it true? in a way, yes. Europe is quite different from USA, just look at the currency, it is almost unified in the continent.
the history of Europe also impact the way people look at the European.
is it capitalism? yes, of course, there is capitalism in Europe!!


my point is, how can you really tell what is socialism and not?
people praise how beautiful the USA was, and now Obama is turning the nation to socilism.
I strongly disagree. I am sorry.

First of all, let's look at the Social Security Fund. Isn't that similar to what a socialism really is? People support each other.
Medicare, what is it? HELPING THE POOR, HELPING THE ELDERLY.
you can tell me a bunch of fancy definitions on socialism, but let me tell you the truth, NO.
As a society getting bigger and bigger, getting more complicated, we need people to support each other. We need people, everyone to take at least some responsibility.
We are a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLICAN nation. We vote for people to run the government, it's the govern of consent, from the people. It's representative democracy. In the past, the ancestors of Americans lived almost independently until urbanization and technology improved.
If socialism is about NO CLASSES, EVERYONE SHARE just a level below the "ideal communism", then how would you justify what Americans had done in the past century with all these federal aids, fund?

I mean, let's stop whining about this. We are not going to be socialism. Stop the political accusation, stop playing the games. People make all kinds of story just to make "yellow journalism". They make money out of this. Bull-SHxT.

Didn't Bush use to say "i want everyone able to own a house, a car, a good living?"
Hey, this is socialism. Even a "royal" republican administration tried to promote the AMERICAN DREAM.

Stop the bulk ** here you politics people. Obama is doing what is necessary, there are ways to improve the entire PACKAGE. I don't like the PORK part at all. Waste money on pork-project. What is that all about?

If people are so concerned about the economy, why not face the truth that the job is difficult. People in these position, work almost 24/7, hundreds of pages and graphs and data and meeting.

Stop being some 3-years old wants mama to do this, and do that.

Everyone has the idea about socialism. Stop with the political terms here.
Educators always say "education for everyone, college for everyone, medicare for everyone". This is the real socialism. But what? Is this a want or need? BOTH. BOTH NEED AND WANT in the economy, society and individual

Guys, you see what I am trying to say here? THERE IS NO SOCIALISM IN ANYWHERE, BUT WE ARE SOCIALISTS OURSELVES, because this is 2009. This is not 1930, not 1940, not 1950, not 1970.
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#5 WingedPanther73

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 03:31 AM

jwxie: I think you bring out a good point: the terms need to be defined.

Capitalism, in its purest form, is when private companies provide the goods and services without interference from the government.

Communism, in its purest form, is when everyone works for the government, which is the only employer.

Socialism is halfway between these, with individual companies either heavily regulated or run by the government. If you look at the number of companies that are run by governments in Europe, you can easily see that most European nations are, in fact, socialist to one degree or another.

The problem with socialism is easy to see in Medicare and Social Security: Medicare is actually forcing doctors to quit, because it pays too little to cover costs. Social Security may be out of money in as little as two years. When Social Security checks stop (and I know I'll never collect mine), there will be outrage or printing of money which leads to inflation, which leads to effectively reducing Social Security payments. Medicare is worthless if there are no doctors to go to.

Capitalism is tough, in that supply and demand determine prices, and not everyone can afford the price. This is a simple reality, however. You cannot have everything you want, and so each person must make choices.

I tend to view capitalism, socialism, and communism as varying degrees of embracing economic principles. Capitalism embraces them fully: people are greedy and will act to maximize perceived value. Socialism tries to moderate this by placing controls on goods and services, but economic principles tend to apply anyway, either reducing quality or resulting in shortages. Communism denies economic principles, and then tries to figure out why people won't work when they get paid regardless of production levels.

I would love to see everyone get the health care they need. Unfortunately, there might not be enough to go around. If doctors can charge more, more will get into the business to meet demand, but fewer will be able to afford it. If doctors can lower costs (such as malpractice insurance), more will get into the business to meet demand and lower their prices, but customers will have fewer recourses in case of accidents. If doctors are forced to charge less, they'll just quit to do something more productive with their time... like program.
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#6 jwxie518

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 04:55 AM

Posted via CodeCall Mobilepanther,i certainly agree.
in the morden world, because o
the great capitalism, life is getting hard, demand and supply, and led to classes
since everyone believe in government doing good for the its people,and arguement such as federal income tax due to the 16amendment, people argue we shouldn,t have ibecause of the monder day, socialism and captialism sought to come together. cap remains in the competition, socialism loses its own meaning itbecomes "relief". i don,t necessary see anything wrong helping the poor at all-be real, we will ned the help one dayy. as u say we are greedy. who doesnt want some tax refund? who doesn,t want a minmium wages ?
if people are so "ideal" tjey should really see what if no free educating, no saving bank federal insuranc
people, like i said, work hard, live happy, stop playing yellow jiuralism, tjis isa nation, this us a worlf, we need to work hard so thatwe can have better econmy
i don,t certainly think the econmy will be back alive within a year, but maybe 2 years, we should the fear getting smmaller.
socialism-now is socially blef, we believe in helping the commjnity, thisis our new socialism
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#7 Aereshaa

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 08:26 AM

A lot of Americans like to trash government-funded medicine, saying it leads to long wait times. Unfortunately, guys, your healthcare, and education systems obviously aren't all they could be, because on average, I'm going to live longer than you, I'm more likely to have a job than you, my currency has less inflation than you, I mean wow, you call yourselves 'the greatest nation on earth', whose streets are paved with gold, but you have more unemployment than CHINA??
The truth is you are alone among wealthy industrialized nations. Everyone else is enjoying the benifits of universal healthcare.
Sources: CIA World Factbook.
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#8 Guest_Jordan_*

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 08:35 AM

Exactly why Canadians fare better is the subject of considerable academic debate. Some policy experts say it's Canada's single-payer, universal health coverage system. Some think it's because our neighbors to the north use fewer illegal drugs and shoot each other less often with guns (though they smoke and drink with gusto, albeit somewhat less than Americans).


Your population is considerably lower than ours so your crime rates are reduced making "average" life longer. Not to mention, our lifespan average is also decreased because of a larger population. Your points are moot.
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#9 Aereshaa

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 11:20 AM

Our crime rates are per capita. They are not affected by population. They are determined by gun ownership, drug use, and poverty, things that American law doesn't do much to prevent.
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#10 Guest_Jordan_*

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 11:35 AM

They can't and that is the way freedom should be. I have many guns, but this doesn't mean I commit any more or less crimes. In fact, I've never killed anyone. Not once.
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#11 Aereshaa

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 11:54 AM

Ok, but what about poverty? In Canada we have publicly funded adult education programs, free healthcare so poverty doesn't make you die if you get sick.
Also, in Canada, schools in rich neighbourhoods get the same funding as schools in poor neighbourhoods. So just because your parents are poor doesn't prevent you from getting a decent education, and one can improve one's station to almost any degree. This is not true in America.
Interesting Fact: the Gaza Strip's death rate is much lower than that of the United States.
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#12 Guest_Jordan_*

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 12:24 PM

I can't argue much against poverty but I don't wish to be paying someone else's life for them. If some lazy b@st*rd doesn't want to work just because they are lazy, they should be poor and shouldn't reap the benefits that the non-lazy, working class does. I've got some family that mooches off the government and I can't say that I like them much.

Disabled people, on the other hand, should get support, IMO.
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